Of course- they basically ordered for us which is what I expected- and as I understand it they always order you the meatballs and the lemon chicken. Actually their bolognese was the best thing I ate-I'd say almost as good as mine! Got some good pics with Pellegrino and Teddy Vest. Man that place is straight out of central casting. Did meet Jerry Lewis, which was shocking because I thought he was dead :grin: _
Have always disliked Tim Brown. He stole the Heisman from Don McPherson in 1987 for one reason and one reason only- because of the Notre Dame hype. McPherson was so much more deserving and Syracuse was a much better team but that golden helmet blinded some of the voters. _
i agree Brown is borderline, like Bettis and Strahan. Brown's numbers are really impressive though. just looked them up to confirm. He is in the top 5 (or at least was at retirement) in all the below categories. - receptions - receiving yds - receiving td's - all purpose yds - punt return yds that is pretty impressive. I'd put Brown in at this point over Bettis and Strahan. the special teams contributions, being a 4 down player and team leader, is what gets him over the hump. It's not the strongest class, but I'll agree with Hasty's list. Derrick Brooks Walter Jones Marvin Harrison Will Shields Tim Brown
I think the HOF should add some sort of Special Teams Wing of Honor. I'm not big on specialists making the Hall, but at the same time being the best at what you do should be noted. Maybe a separate ST branch of the Hall would make a nice compromise. That is where I'd recognize Ray Guy, Morten Andersen, Steve Tasker, Devin Hester, Adam Vinatieri, maybe even Shane Lechler one day. Also any existing HOF members, like Stenerud and Lou 'the toe' Groza, I'd also recognize them here as well. Let the Hall itself recognize players here as needed. no writers voting process, as its just a recognition, and not a true induction. What do you all think?
I'm not sure why there needs to be a special wing. If punters and kickers are playing the game, they should be equally recognized. I can't for the life of me understand why the greatest player ever at his position-Ray Guy- is not in the HOF. Makes no sense. _
In my lifetime he's been better than anyone I've ever seen at the position. Probably Reggie Roby is the second and Guy was better. It's all opinion, but if you look up punters it's pretty well acknowledged that he was the best. 6 time All Pro 1st team and 2 time All Pro 2nd team. Named to the NFL 75th Anniversary All Time team. He's kind of the Jerry Rice of punters. _
Tommy Davis does not have the All-Pro recognition because punters were not selected until 1964. His best years had passed by that time. Sammy Baugh was a great punter, but the ball was shaped differently and he had a lot of quick kicks. He got a good roll a lot of times, so his average is a little inflated. I can also listen to arguments for Lechler, Landeta, Lary, Sauerbrun, Jerrel Wilson, Tupa, Stark and Roby. Including Guy, that makes it 11 punters I would consider to be in the mix for best punter ever. I am not sure Guy is the best. He might be.
I never saw Sammy Baugh and I didn't start watching football until 1968 so I never saw Davis either. But in my lifetime, Guy was better than all those other guys you mentioned-way better than guys like Tupamaros and Landeta and Stark etc. The closest I saw was Roby. But if you look up anyone's list of greatest punters I think it's probably unanimous that Guy was the best. All still opinion but pretty universal acknowledgment. It's a good debate though. _
My top four would be Baugh, Davis, Guy and then either Wilson or Lechler. I have seen Baugh play twice. I have not seen Davis but have seen the stats and testimonials.
Again, Baugh stopped playing before I was born and Davis finished his career the year I started watching football as a 10 year old and the only players in the world that existed for me were Namath, Sauer, Maynard, Snell and Boozer so I can't speak to those guys. But of all the rest, the best easily was Guy. But every year at this time I google "greatest punters of all time" just to try to understand why he's not in the HOF and every single ranking, poll, list, article, blog, etc. puts Guy as number 1. I've never seen a poll or ranking putting anyone above him. The 75th Anniversary All Time Team. Arguably the greatest player ever at his position and not in the Hall of Fame. It's a shame. _
no one was punting like Guy in his era. as Stokes mentioned, he's on the all 75 team, and widely regarded as best Punter of all time. From what i remember, and what i've recently read, his hang time was unprecedented at that time. He also doubled the punts Inside 20 over anyone else playing in his era. He changed the position. I think he should get in, and finally will this year. His biggest obstacle in past was getting in at the expense of a position player (which i can understand). But now, he is nominated for the first time as a senior player, and his induction would not affect the 5 position players. So i think this is finally the time.. Cakes, i give you a star for the Sammy Baugh reference and the different shaped football. great stuff. I think Guy, Roby, and in current era Lechler would be the most memorable punters i've seen play. One thing I'll credit Al Davis for, he certainly wasn't afraid to do things his way. Drafting Guy and Janikowski in the first round, and Lechler in the fifth. big balls but it worked out.
as i mentioned i believe Ray Guy will finally get in as a senior candidate. I believe Joe Klecko may have finally entered senior candidate status as well (over 25 years retired). I noticed this year was the first i can remember he wasn't on the modern era candidates list. Does anyone know if that is because he has now reached senior candidate status? It's time the HOF right this wrong, and induct Klecko. He certainly deserves it at least as a senior status.. As a side note, i can't believe Klecko is retired 25 years. makes me feel old!
Sean Lahman wrote The Pro Football Historical Abstract in 2008. He does not have Guy in the top 10. His top 12 punters- 1. Dave Jennings 2. Wilson 3. Bobby Walden 4. Bobby Joe Green 5. Stark 6. Landeta 7. Paul Maguire 8. Rich Camarillo 9. Baugh 10. Darren Bennett 11. Rick Tuten 12. Guy This is what Lahman had to say about Guy-
I don't know that he changed the position. There were other good punters before, after and during his career. I don't think anybody starting punting differently because they learned a new technique or something from watching Guy. As far as inside the 20 stats go, I don't know if I ever saw them for Guy and punters of his time. Maybe pro-football-reference has those numbers. If not, maybe the '79 or '81 league record manuals have them. I have those two books and could check tonight. I never pursued that info before, but you piqued my interest a bit. I am not questioning that Guy was one of the greatest punters ever. I am merely interested in more concrete stuff than he had the most all-pro seasons and everyone says he is the best kind of stuff.
I hope you read it as I spent 10 minutes typing it with the book open in front of me. I am not arguing with you on Guy. I asked why you thought he was the best ever. You said it was because of the eyeball test. You saw him. That's good enough. At least you saw him and are not going with him because everyone says he was the best, so it must be true.
No I would never do that. I make judgments on my own, looking at rankings and polls and articles I do just to make sure I'm not crazy. Jennings was a GREAT punter, but the number 1 punter of all time? That's crazy talk. Better than Guy? And Stark? Landetta? Camarillo? Tuten? MaQuire? That is a list of great punters but not one of those guys is better than Guy IMHO- not even close. Btw, I was a Steve O'Neill fan back in the day so it's not like Guy was my favorite punter- I just saw him for what he was- the greatest. Hell, he doesn't even have Reggie Roby on the list who was the second best punter I've ever seen. It looks like a contrarian trying to make a point. His point would have been more palatable had he said Guy was 2nd or 3rd or 4th. But 12th? It's just a guy looking to pull someone's chain. It's silly. _
