they don't-he's just a hold-the-fort guy to them. mangini knows from the pats defense he was a part of just how easy it is to defense him. the motions and formations and no-huddle gimmick will only fool people very short-term.:wink:
Pennington is a nice QB top 10 in smarts bottom 10 in physical ability. If he's healthy it's probably not going to be a position that we can easlity upgrade. If he is hurt again it may be time to move on. I subscribe to you play the best guy at the position. If we are in a blowout win or loss you can throw Ramsey or Clemens into the mix. If in practice it becomes clear that one or both of them are better than Pennington you make a move. We probaly aren't going to go far with Pennington unless we have a team that looks a lot like the 85 bears. Hopefully Pennington will be healthy and we can build our version of the 85 bears in a year or two while Pennington is still capable of throwing an 8 yard out pattern.
I am absolutely 100% certain that Clemens gives us a better chance against the Patriots and Bears than Chad does, and quite frankly, I don't believe he would have done worse than Chad against the Browns. From where I stand, Clemens gives us the best chance to win these upcoming two games, and for the future as well. I don't believe you can use the argument of "best chance to win" for an unknown, we absolutely do not know what Clemens is capable of. Practice isn't the same as game time, but even then, we, the fans, do not know what Clemens is capable of. That is precisely the reason I want to see Clemens, so that we actually know what we have in him, and can then make an informed decision on who gives us the best chance to win. I'm pretty sure it's not Ramsey, and I'm beginning to think it isn't Pennington either.
you are out your mind the shceme bill is gonna throw at clemons will destroy any chance he has to get confidence...if he comes in it has to be against a week d so he can get some confidence..ats_suck:
consider the flipside: if he came in and threw a nice game against the Pats D -- his confidence would be through the roof. cheers
That and it's awfully hard to gameplan for a QB you know nothing about. The Bears D sure didn't destroy Leinart's confidence, I think the Oakland D might have though.
It will be interesting to see what the people who are defending Pennington say after the next two games. Pennington will have his chance to prove if he should stay because the Bears and Pats will blitz every chance they get and throw seven men on the line of scrimmage and dare him to throw. That slant route to coles does not seem to work as well against real defenses. After the Bear Game it will be interesting to see what the Pennington supporters have to say.
What makes you think that Mangini would keep Clemens on the bench if he felt he gave the team a better chance to win? Nobody could have done worse against the Browns than Chad but that really isn't the point unless you have an axe to grind with Chad?
if Clemmens psyche is so fragile, it doesn't matter who he plays, he is going to fail. I don't buy the whole coddle a player and help him build confidence. that is a trait of a poor player. plenty of great QB's played poorly early in their careers and yet perservered...that is why they are great quarterbacks. they had an inner confidence that couldn't be broken, regardless of setbacks. it has nothing to do with keeping them out of tough games early in their careers. either he has the mental toughness to be a NFL QB or he doesn't. I don't see this as a gray area.
We are playing for the chance to win in the future, not today. Clemens or somebody else gives us that chance so we should see what we have as soon as a chance at a meaningless first round playoff loss over. Out of respect I understand why chad is still the starting QB. After the bear game if we get beat as advertised it should be time the Clemens era began. It is better to see what we have in week 10 this year than week 1 next. If we don't Im going to hear the same people that are defending Pennington today crying about why we didn't find out what Clemens could do last year when we had the chance.
Clemens is gonna play this season. Its gonna be during the 4th quarter with 5 minutes left and the Jets are up by 20
For the same reason most of this site wants to keep Chad for now, we don't know what Clemens can do, and we would rather accept mediocrity for now. While I say I think Clemens gives us a better chance to win in those games I listed, he will still probably lose. Pennington right now is generally a better option against the weaker defenses, Clemens is better against the better defenses but that isn't saying much, considering how bad Pennington has been. In general, Pennington should be able to beat teams like the Browns more often than not. The reason why i'd rather see Clemens start is that I think if Clemens is going to be a decent QB, he should be able to beat the Browns more often than not as well, but also he might have a better shot against the better defenses, which we're going to have to beat eventually. Also, Chad seems rather inconsistent to me, even if you take away the good defenses. We don't always beat the weaker defenses. So basically in Chad we have a QB that will always lose to good teams, and while you don't expect anyone to beat bad teams 100% of the time, he seems to not really be as consistent against the bad teams as you'd want out of a top QB. I agree with someone who posted that Chad has top 10 football mental ability and bottom 5 athletic ability. Unfortunately, I think that makes him a liability, so I want to see if maybe he can help coach Clemens to that top 10 mind so that we have a better shot. I think Chad will be an excellent QB coach, and I am absolutely certain that after that he will be a great OC, and then he has the potential to be a very good head coach. I love the guy's passion, and I respect his mental ability, but I absolutely do not think he can make it with his physical ability as a good QB. Almost all of us that post here are huge Jets fans and want to see the team succeed, that's why we post here. Some of us have different ideas on what will get us there however. I don't really have an axe to grind with Chad, but I do not think he is helping the team right now. Of course, I say most of us root for the Jets, but then there are guys like rajensan that aren't really fans. I think the line between rooting for the player and the team can get blurry, I think at some point, that line may come with Chad. I don't think it has come yet, and I admit I could be a bit quick on my viewpoint, but I think it will come in the near future. When/if that time comes, maybe I will be vindicated. I know I feel vindicated with JAbe at least.
Would you except really bad rather than mediocre and setting back the rest of the team including the rookie RB and two rookie OL men? This is based on what knowledge? The fact that Pennington doesn't generally do well against good defenses does not mean it follows logically that Clemens will be better against good defenses. This is pure speculation on your part based on zero facts. I agree with you he has beat teams like the Browns on a consistent basis when he has been healthy enough to play. Finally a decent observation, you think he will be better against better defenses and reasonably good against the Browns. I solid admission that you don't have a clue if this is so. The guy has a 2 & 2 playoff record so presumably he is beating good teams 50% of the time in elimination games. There are about 4 QB in the league right now who aren't inconsitent and liabilities to their teams during the season. Chad has been less than stellar the last 4 games but other than against Jax and Cleveland he has performed as good as any Jet player at any position other than maybe Rhodes. I think Chad may be hurt or have a tired arm. I don't think healthy he is a great QB but to say he isn't helping this team right now shows a true lack of knowledge about the Jets as a team and what Pennington is bringing to the table right now. This team isn't that good and we have a rookie OC who has ideas but isn't all that field tested. Chad is the glue to the entire O right now. Without Chad out there we don't have an O right now and Shoty is looking for a new career. If and when Clemens or Ramsey proves they are capable and Chad proves he isn't that's the time to make a move. That's a coaching decission based on seeing these guys in practice every day. If you want to debate the point that Pennington isn't a long term answer, that's something we can argue with based on past performance and projecting it into the future. We don't have any past performance on Clemens. None of us know if he will be as good as Chad and that by itself isn't a good enough reason to start him if you're the HC. The HC at least can evaluate Clemens in practice something that we don't have the luxury of.
It all depends on the FO, not Chad's actions on the field. If they are in the Clemmens camp, he'll be in there playing.
Ho hum. I guess we should have kept Mawae then, I'm 100% certain Mawae was better in practice than Mangold, but we decided to move on. Why did we start Mangold? Why did we get D'Brick and start him, when he's a complete unknown? I think your post falls apart on that. We don't know what Clemens can do, but either does the coaching staff. That is why you play players in real game situations. It's obvious that you're going to practice and play different based on your experience, but how can you gain that experience carrying around a clip board all the time? If you're not going to speculate, what's the point of following the team and posting on these boards? What do you think a draft pick is based on? Analysis of past performance used to project future performance, i.e., pure speculation without facts. Clemens scouting report tells me he has a stronger arm than Chad, and I think the arm strength is what makes Chad fail in bad weather and against strong defenses. Therefore, I speculate Clemens gives us a better chance than Chad in these situations. I suppose it was asking too much for you to have asked me why I thought this if you were unsure before attacking me. In the previous post you admit nobody could have done worse than Chad against the Browns, and then you turn around and tell me I have no reason to think Clemens would have done better. haha, you're truly brilliant. So the guy doesn't show up for games and I'm not allowed to criticize him, and point out how he didn't help in 2 games this year? I think that doesn't show a lack of knowledge by me, but rather denial and hostility by you. I wanted to civilly debate this with you, but it seems like you'd rather resort to ad hominem attacks, a nasty tone, and general childishness. This is what I don't understand about Jets fans. I heard the exact same arguments years ago, ironically enough, in defense of Vinny against starting Chad. I was right 4 years ago, and I'm sure I'm right now. The fact is you will not know what a player is capable of if you don't play them. I don't know if Clemens will be better, however, I frankly think it is impossible to perform worse than Chad has in some of the games this season. If Clemens is going to even be a competent player, he will perform better. It is pretty safe bet that Clemens can post up something better than a 21 rating. I know I have the unpopular viewpoint, but I was on the unpopular side against Herm and JAbe and history has borne me out, so I don't mind being unpopular on pointing out Chad's flaws. I did spend hundreds on his authentic jersey, I feel I've proven I'm a true fan and have the right to complain.
You are 100% absolutely certain Mawae was better in practice than Mangold? Mawae was cut before training camp. D'Brick was the No. 4 pick in the entire draft and our LT was an unproven second year player. Trey Teague was hurt that's why Mangold was forced into the starting job from day one. Chad on the other hand was in camp and outright won the job in training camp in an open competition.
