It is not alive any more than a fertilized goose egg is alive. It is part of the mother at that point and cannot breathe or survive outside of the womb. I saw those pictures, they don't change my view. Of course it looks like a little human, it IS a developing human. But to claim it's an actually baby is a gross exaggeration. Don't get me wrong, I'm against late term abortion and believe in adoption when applicable, but the whole killing babies thing is pure propaganda. I'm not bashing religion, but religious views are the prime reason most folks are against it. Don't try to claim this isn't true. I mean come on you've cited Christian apologetic sites and "priestforlife.org" recently. No bias in those sites at all right? Seriously? I was arguing that they aren't babies and THEY ARE NOT, SCIENTIFICALLY. Your argument against this is, "OMG it totally has limbs starting to develop." Can it survive outside the womb? Alright then, it's not a baby. Also I do agree with couples choice over woman's choice. It is half the man's genetic material after all.
Has nothing to do with religion, and pretty much everything to do with believing it's not right to kill people. Fetus/baby is a technical term - full pregnancy is 9 months, but premies are born all the time at 6 or 7 months, so why isn't it ok to kill them when they're out at that point? There's a point in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable and for all intents and purposes a baby. You can bury your head in the sand if you want and make yourself feel better that since the fetus never left the womb it was never a baby, but it doesn't make it true. I'm in a weird place on this debate because I think it is a woman's body and she should be able to choose what to do with it and it's on her for killing the baby she was about to give life to, but on the other hand doctors that go in there and butcher the fetus are committing a form of homicide and it should be illegal for anyone to do that - certainly not proper medicine. The only exception I think would be morally right is if the woman's life is in danger
Your first line says it all. Kill people. It's not a person yet. You can't argue against that by bringing up 7-9 months of development. I already said clearly that I was against late term abortion and don't see it as a form of birth control. It's not a baby until it can survive outside the womb. I know premature babies are born, but they need to be connected to life support and very often are NOT viable right away and very often do not have long healthy lives. Comparing it to homicide is nonsensical, and to say it has nothing to do with religion is beyond silly.
We're not as far apart on this as you think. It all comes down to what's viable and when that cutoff point is, and it's not a simple one size fits all type of determination
I agree with this, and that point is very hard to determine. I do honestly believe that if somebody chooses to have an abortion is should be early, not several months in. Make your choice and live with it, don't change your mind halfway through.
Please Barcs, you nitpick the shit out of my posts all you want, I responded to a direct quote of yours: Barcs: "a fetus isn't any more alive than a sperm is" I already obliterated you on this point so moving along Your argument that terminating a fetus should be morally acceptable because it can't survive without the mother is not viable because no child can survive without the mother. By that logic it should be completely ok to kill infants. By the way, I google searched "aborted fetus pictures" and that priest site is the first one that came up. I've never visited it before. Maybe all the dead fetus pictures are on religious sites because those are the only people that care about them.
Barcs I voted "it is a murder". Believe me I am not religious. And this thought process has nothing to do to please God. I pretty much annoy God everyday as a Muslim. I drink, I gamble, I hit strip clubs when I am on business trips, I don't pray, I don't fast and I don't give Zakat. Believe me not all people who condemn abortion are motivated thru religion.
I agree it's a hard thing to determine, when does life start? Technically once the gametes are fused it's an organism. But when do we consider it human? I'm not sure where I stand on it exactly, but when it starts looking like a human, when it has fingers and toes and a face - I consider that human.
Oh the ironing. That's what Barcs does unless it bites him in the ass, which inevitably it does. Btw Dierking, I'm not derailing a thread, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. _
I support the legal right to an abortion up to 12 weeks. I personally and morally don't believe that abortion is acceptable. I could go back and forth between the talking points. For me, it boils down to a really simple statement. I have no right to decide for another adult what is morally acceptable.
Ok, and what of this Barcs? What of partial-birth abortions and the question of fetal and/or infant 'viability'? And how would you view this: vag half empty or half-full?
I've never understood why it's always a "religious" issue. Sure, the religious right is the standard bearer on the issue but there are also lots of folks who feel the way you do--that it has nothing to do with religion. Well said Sir. _
As much as I'd love to kill me some infants, I did not infer that it is strictly because it can't survive without the mother. I was referring to the FACT that it can't survive at ALL outside the womb that early in the pregnancy, mother or not. Again, I'm not referring to late term abortions. I am against that. Keep it in the first trimester. Twas my point. Thanks for demonstrating it for me. Besides, the world is already over populated. Less babies being born into bad situations is generally a good thing. People that are too poor or too religious to use birth control are popping out babies like the vagina is a clown car. It's not cool. That means more stupid people and less responsible people reproduce. It makes us weaker as a species. After 2 kids, tie the tubes and be done with it.
Why are you against late term? They can't survive outside the womb either, usually they will die or survive only with intensive hospital care. Why not kill infants, they will die in about five days without intensive care from the mother. Obviously I'm being rhetorical, the point is why do you magically draw a line with late term? The fetus looks human at 7 weeks. Personally, I know my mom had an ultrasound done on me at 6 weeks; I had limbs and all and was flipping in circles and swimming and moving around like crazy. Really, it's quite ridiculous to claim that's not a living thing. Do you realize how much you sound like a Nazi? Seriously man. This paragraph is almost verbatim Nazi genocidal propaganda. If you really think that then you are an evil person.
Holy cow. Wow. Too bad there aren't retroactive abortions. There'd definitely be one less stupid person right here on TGG. _
